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Post by quasimodo24601 on Mar 7, 2009 4:18:04 GMT -5
It must have been years now that I have wanted to do this poll, and I've generally avoided the urge because it would probably be a worm can opening, in which dire fans of both would come out and engage a war as to who was better than the other. I didn't want to be accused of flamebaiting, in short.
However, recently, I have found myself in the position, of talking someone very close to me out of joining the military (this person was unsure that he belonged and seemed to be doing it for the wrong reasons). I had to convince this person that there were other types of strength out there than what is derived from military service. Despite what the commercials may lead you to believe.
It got me to thinking about that old poll question I used to want to ask but never did; who do you believe is stronger and who do you admire more? Belle or Mulan?
Both are exceedingly strong, selfless, courageous women, with quite alot in common. Both are devoted to their fathers and make sacrifices for them with their lives, both are social outsiders that break away from the conventions of their time period, and both are able to find love by finding themselves and overcoming personal challenges. Still, they are quite different, obviously, in some major ways.
Mulan is tough, resilient, disciplined, and capable having started out as quirky, awkward, and unfocused. Meanwhile, Belle never shows to be the least bit capable of defending herself in any situation, and yet she never wavers in her confidence, or her belief and willingness to stand out in a crowd, even if it means defending someone whom everyone else believes is the spawn of Satan. People would probably be ready to immediately say that Mulan is the stronger one, on the virtue of her self-defense skills. But was Mulan ever put in the series of positions Belle was put in, consistently, in which she had to stand up to her entire community for what she believed in, with no one to stand by her tell her what to do?
I think it says alot about women, not only in animated movies, but movies, or just mainstream art, in general in that we are given two very strong women who go extremely different paths, in very different ways & manners. Still, both are strong and admirable. But, whom do you admire more, and who do you believe is stronger, by your own definition of "strength"?
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Post by meggyc on Mar 11, 2009 10:55:22 GMT -5
As far as physical strength, I defiantly would choose Mulan. Though Belle does make some admirable sacrifices, I just don't know how to judge these two characters.
Belle seems more visibly stubborn than Mulan. My mind always goes to that scene in Beauty and the Beast where the Beast yells at Belle through the closed door. We don't even SEE Belle in that scene, but she is in full control of the situation.
However, Mulan doesn't give up and fights to persevere through her adversity throughout the movie.
People always praise Belle on the thought that she is smart and that she reads, but we really don't see her intelligence in actions. Mulan, on the other hand, is the first to realize how to reach the arrow at the camp. In the battle at the mountains, she realizes that causing an avalanche will do the most damage as opposed to killing one person. Under life or death circumstances, she has the wits about her to make her way through the avalanche back to the troop. Not to mention her acts of resourcefulness at the imperial palace. So I believe, Mulan can not be faulted for not having a strong mind.
I really must say that I admire Mulan more.
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Post by quasimodo24601 on Mar 11, 2009 19:00:44 GMT -5
I agree that Mulan displayed impressive smarts and wit during tense situations, but Belle did have her moments, as well. She sends Gaston out into a mud puddle after pretending to be interested in his proposal, she was able to evade the pursuits of a pack of wolves by leaving them behind in the frozen lake (she did get caught anyway), she was able to compromise with the Beast to get him to slowly abandon his violent mannerisms, and anyone capable of walking through a town effortlessly with a book in front of their face would have to be pretty alert.
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Post by meggyc on Mar 11, 2009 20:01:53 GMT -5
I agree that Mulan displayed impressive smarts and wit during tense situations, but Belle did have her moments, as well. She sends Gaston out into a mud puddle after pretending to be interested in his proposal, she was able to evade the pursuits of a pack of wolves by leaving them behind in the frozen lake (she did get caught anyway), she was able to compromise with the Beast to get him to slowly abandon his violent mannerisms, and anyone capable of walking through a town effortlessly with a book in front of their face would have to be pretty alert. That's true. In the very least, she was more active than some other princesses.
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Post by quasimodo24601 on Mar 12, 2009 20:16:55 GMT -5
And, no doubt, Mulan definitely had her own unique brand of smarts. Even before her entrance into the army, she had her street smarts about her that to be found lacking even in Belle. That is certainly visible in her quick thinking with the matchmaker and her impressive chess move in "Honor to Us All". I did not mean to insinuate that Mulan was weak-minded, only that Belle, herself, was not weak, even though she had no Martial Arts skills to her name. It takes courage to stand up to a Beast or an angry lynch mob, you know.
But, still, given the position held by women during Belle's time, where they were to be thought of as property, almost objects, it is extremely impressive that a woman is even remotely literate, much less able to read every book in her town bookshop to the point of boredom. That's no small feat. I'm going to reckon that a great deal of the male villagers in that town could not read, at least as proficiently as Belle could, if at all.
I guess people are smart in different ways. I would never accuse Oppenheimer of being stupid compared to General MacArthur and vice versa. Everyone has their own brand of intelligence and expertise.
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Post by Beauty&TheBeast on Mar 24, 2009 18:24:50 GMT -5
Belle, Belle, Belle, Belle, Belle! Always. XD
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frollo
Poor Unfortunate Soul
Posts: 13
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Post by frollo on Apr 3, 2009 19:27:16 GMT -5
I voted Belle. I really like Mulan, I really do. But, Belle strikes me as the more unique of the two. She uses all but physical force to achieve her goals, which I find admirable. I agree with the post that stated she was "more active" than the other princesses. I know she doesn't look like much now compared to all of the uber-feminist heroines of modern day Disney, but back then, she really must have been something. She didn't do any of those typical things the other "princesses" were doing at that time. She never twirled around romantically in front of someone for joy of being in love, she never sat longingly in front of a mirror gazing at her reflection and humming, she never "slipped" and ended up falling in the arms of her man, etc. She was really a trailblazer, then.
And, when you think about it, she was in a ery unique position compared to the other heroines, having to deal with the role of "prisoner," which brought out definite "domestic violence" tones. True, Snow White, Aurora, and Cinderella were "prisoners," but their keepers were matriarchs. Older women (two of whom despised their wards) made to be contrasted with the beauty of the women they watch over. It was as if their means of survival was that they knew they were better people than their keepers could ever be. Ariel never exhanged so much as a word with her man in the first film, and Jasmine had such a position of power that she could say whatever the heck she wanted and get away with it.
Meanwhile, Belle was a prisoner to a Beast. She had forfeited her freedom to a large brute, after narrowly escaping marriage with another. And, she never let him break her down. She fought him for control and his respect, she forced him to take ownership and responsibility for his own mistakes (despite his threats and attempts to blame and exploit her), and she was more outspoken than anyone in the castle. This eventually earns her her freedom.
Even later heroines weren't faced with such a situation. Pocahontas told Smith to shove it, but she never once does the same to Kockuum, her betrothed. Esmeralda is never put in such a position where she has to coexist with a man, day by day, with abusive tendencies. She shares an abode with Quasimodo, who worships her, for less than a day, and never has to live with either Phoebus or Frollo to serve as their "prisoner" (except near the end, which I guess sort of counts, although it seems a somewhat different situation). So, I guess that leaves us with Mulan and Meg, who were generally faced with similar "gender" issues. I'm not saying any heroine is stronger or weaker, I'm only saying its interesting how gender roles are approached in Disney films.
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Post by Tingeling on Apr 12, 2009 18:41:41 GMT -5
Mulán for me. I don't really like Belle all that much. I find her quite stuck-up, and I really don't like how she breaks the one rule the Beast set up for her, and then goes running away breaking her promise when he gets angry over it.
Mulán makes mistakes too, but her intentions are better. She's smarter, more active and a heck of a lot braver. So Mulán for me, any day of the week.
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frollo
Poor Unfortunate Soul
Posts: 13
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Post by frollo on Jun 14, 2009 20:22:38 GMT -5
lol, that reminds me of the Disney PRincess Round Table dialogue from the early '90s...
That was a riot. Although, personally, the way I see it, she thought she was going into the dungeon when she "promised" and figured she didn't have a choice whether or not she could leave, anyway. Her reasons for going into the West Wing was that she probably believed that she owed the Beast nothing and could do whatever the heck she wanted (he did lock her father up adn threaten her repeatedly, after all).
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